CWJJ Episode 73: Terry McConnell and Douglas Weishaar

Thursday, September 2- Terry McConnell and Douglas Weishaar join the show to talk about all things PA12 pipe and the new way it’s being used in the #naturalgas #distribution world.

Quick Links:

Terry McConnell on Linkedin
Douglas Weishaar on Linkedin

Episode Transcript

 [0:00] music] [0:00] [0:23]

Jim:  Good morning, everyone. Welcome to this episode of Coffee with Jimmy and James. James, OK, before we get started I have to tell you I’m a little excited for this morning. Not just because I have my coffee, but, as you know I’ve been in the energy industry 20 years, utility grids, midstream, LNG, OQ compliance, and what did I get in the mail the other day, you know, when something, I, I don’t want to give a, I don’t want to give a lot, but when I get something like this in the mail, let me tell you, it keeps me, it gets me going, gets me excited. So, I can’t wait to dive into this weeks episode. [0:00] [1:00]

James:  So, it’s, so when our guests ask us who, you know, for our address to send it, as much as I wanted I didn’t want to have to send two different ones. So, I, I said, Jimmy, you take this one because I knew how pumped you would be, because he’s a nerd like that. [0:00] [1:15]

James:  Because he’s, you know, like, you would be one of the few people, you know, that would just be go to the mailbox be pumped to find a random piece of pipe in there. [0:00] [1:24]

Jim:  Oh, sucks. [0:00] [1:24]

James:  And so, er, first of all, welcome to the show, Terry and Doug. [0:00] [1:29]

Jim:  Yes. [0:00] [1:30]

James:  We’re not even gonna try to do your intros, we’ll let y’all intro yourself, but our friends at Evonik and, er, we appreciate y’all joining us today. We have some exciting stuff talk about that, honestly, I have no clue about. There’s a lot of acronyms, and letters, and numbers, and stuff, and I’m going to be a learner here. I told Jim before we started this one. This is going to be one of those where I sit back and learn, and really enjoy it. So, these are some of my favorite because I don’t have to work a lot, to be perfectly honest, er, but, welcome to the show, guys. [0:00] [2:02]

Terry:  Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. So, hey, before we start Jim and James, just want to tell you guys Doug and I really appreciate you having us on your show, er, learn a little bit more about Evonik and introducing PA 12 to the gas distribution world, at least everybody out there listening anyways, um, but, er, so, we just want to… [0:00] [2:23]

James:  What you want to do. [0:00] [2:23]

Terry:  Yes. Yeah, so, hopefully… [0:00] [2:25]

James:  That’s the listeners. [0:00] [2:26]

Terry:  Two, two, Doug and I are here, and then there’s two of them after that. [0:00] [2:30]

James:  [laughs] [0:00] [2:30]

Terry:  But, er, but no, we just want to extend our appreciation for, for letting us come on your show and talk a little bit about PA 12. So, thank you guys. [0:00] [2:41]

Jim:  Absolutely our pleasure. Let, let me kick this off. You, you know, I always talk about relationships, right, James? Terry and I met through a mutual connection. We were connecting the dots and, you know, we’re excited to hear about Evonik and everything that’s going on. So, having both Terry and Doug, why don’t we do this? Why don’t, why don’t you each spend a little time. Give us the 30,000 foot level of, you know, where you are so we can learn a little bit about both of you and, um, get a little background of that, and then we’ll dive a little bit deeper in some of the, some of the fun stuff. So… [0:00] [3:16]

Doug:  I’m stuck. [0:00] [3:17]

Terry:  Yes. Absolutely. Thanks, Jim. I’ll go first and I’ll pass it off to Doug. But, er, I, I guess what I’ll do is I’ll start it from the beginning, er, not, not the beginning of me, but the beginning of my time in the industry. Rewind the clock about 10 years ago. Back in the beginning of 2012. I joined a somewhat known company in the industry called George Fisher Central Plastics. [0:00] [3:43]

Jim:  Yep: [0:00] [3:43]

Terry:  And, um, while I was there, er, topic of conversation that kept coming up, you know, time after time, was hydrocarbon permeation and the effects that it has on pipelines, and, and to be honest with you guys, at the time I’m not sure there was a great solution out there for, for that hydrocarbon permeation, whether it be in, internal or external hydrocarbon permeation. Um, but I get back to that here in a second, er, back to my time at Central, after spending some time there for a while I made a move to a smaller company and then eventually landed at, er, a larger company called Baker Hughes, er, where I was introduced to this material called PA 12. [0:00] [4:24] Um, it was being used at the time in oil gas gathering, still is, but, er, at the time it was being used in oil gas gathering and Baker Hughes was using it, er, quite a bit. And, er, once I learned more about it, I knew that it had, it would be the answer. Could be the answer to a lot of concerns within the gas distribution company regarding hydrocarbon permeation, but it is not just hydrocarbon permeation its, its for higher pressures, as well, instead of having to go from HDPE to steel, now there’s, there’s a play there for PA 12. [0:00] [4:59] Um, so to bring this ball back around, I joined Evonik mid 2020. Excited about the opportunity that PA 12 can, er, bring to our industry, but bottom line is, er, as well, as we all do, we want our industry to be safer and people keep progressing. So, when Doug hired me on board, I knew that together we could bring real change in our industry in a way that answers a lot of questions that maybe didn’t have answers to before, or possibly previously haven’t been wanted to be asked in the past. So, that’s kind of my 30,000 foot and what’s brought me here today with you guys, and with that I’ll p‑, pass the baton over to a much wiser gentlemen, Doug, wiser than I. [0:00] [5:42]

Doug:  Wiser, older, I don’t know. Thanks Terry, that was, er, a good intro. So, um, yeah, truth be told I, er, hired Terry without ever having personally met him. He was our first COVID hire or victim… [0:00] [5:54]

Terry:  Hire. [0:00] [5:55]

Doug:  …with the company. I mean, imagine going through that process. It, it was just all brand new, but, um. [0:00] [6:01]

Terry:  It was the only chance I had to get hired, honestly,. [0:00] [6:05]

Terry:  If he would have met me first, no way I’d be talking to you guys right now. [0:00] [6:10]

Doug:  Absolutely not true. But, but, but, you know, what an experience, right? Um, er, not to diverge too much away from the top pick here, but, hey. My background, I’ve been with Evonik for about 13 years. Um, I’ve had different positions over that time, but I’m currently, er, the market segment manager for our industrial and energy market segment. What does that mean? Well, what in, what’s in the energy market segment? We have a strong focus on upstream. We want gas production as well as the downstream, er, gas distribution markets. So, um, yeah, today we’re here to talk more about the downstream and how future will, you know, in a, in a gas distribution pipe form, er, can really benefit the market. [0:00] [6:58]

Jim:  I like it, that, that, those both very good and very concise. So, I’m going to, I’m going to continue on James, because I just feel like carrying the baton at this. [0:00] [7:07]

James:  Jim, I feel, I feel like they’re trying to make time, you know, like, like we told them kind of the ballpark time and they’re both over there with like shot clock, you know, that’s right. [0:00] [[7:16] laughter] [0:00] [7:18]

Jim:  Oh, okay. Hold on. I’ve been waiting for this all day, excuse me, all morning came, right? So, Evonik has been around for what,100 years? You guys are, you know, well known in the world. Have a depth and breadth of products, a plethora of products, but the one thing that you reached out about was the PA 12 ready, James, ready? And I’ve always been an SEC guy or even a big 12 guy, but the pack always did, see what I did there? This isn’t college, come on guys, give me a… [0:00] [7:48]

Jim:  Is the mic on? Are we still going? [0:00] [7:51]

James:  Virtual, it’s hard, it’s hard to tell jokes in virtual world. [0:00] [7:54]

Terry:  There you go, Jim. [0:00] [7:56]

Jim:  I tried, you know, I’m going to do that at SGA, I’ll, I’ll carry it out in person. But, we did come here to talk about the, I believe, it’s a 2101 PA 12 pipe NRG, blank blank, blank. Anyway, I think this is the animal right here. Can you gentlemen bring us up to speed because a, a few things that I do know about this, I have done a little research, I know that some of the characteristics for running through a natural gas grid, especially downstream of the City Gate, we can get up to 250 psi through this. [0:00] [8:27]

Doug:  Yes. [0:00] [8:27]

Jim:  And, these are the some of the things, being an ex utility guy, that really spark me and, and interest me. So, I want to know about everything from, you know, crimping, to, you know, all, all the good things. So, let me hand it back over to you gentlemen. [0:00] [8:42]

Terry:  Absolutely. Yes, VEST MID Energy 2101 otherwise known as PA 12. [0:00] [8:48]

Jim:  There we go. [0:00] [8:49]

Terry:  So, but, er, what I’ll do is, is, I’m going to let to Doug jump in here and talk a little bit about the PA 12. Um, he’s, er, much more experienced in this than I am, but, er, I’ll jump back in and fill in some more gaps then too. [0:00] [9:05]

Doug:  Whoa, thanks, thanks. Terry. Um, talk about a quick handoff. We talking about football or PA 12 pipe. Wait a minute. [0:00] [9:12]

Jim:  Either one. [0:00] [9:15]

Doug:  [laughs] All right, maybe we should stick with what I know better. Yeah, PA 12 pipe. [laughs] Well, hey, look a quick chemistry lesson, PA12, um, Evonik introduced, er, polyamides back in 1963. I mean, that this stuff is older than I am. It’s been around for a long time. Maybe older than all of us, hopefully, and the coal. [laughs] So, so we’re not, we’re not talking about a newly‑developed material here. [0:00] [9:41] PA 12 has a long‑standing history of proven performance in automotive and energy, er, application. What is new though, is the use of this material for producing natural gas distribution pipe and fittings, right? And, er, look for many years, your coming out of the industry, steel with the only material that, that people went to. Well, before that it was wood and clay, believe it or not, um, years and years and years ago. All right, but let’s talk more recent history, um, steel with the place to go. [0:00] [10:14] So, um, yeah, introduce, er, HDPE, another polymer, er, and this, this material, er, has dominated the low pressure gas pipe market for, for many years, starting back in the early, er, 1960s. So, what does that mean? So, that means the industry wants a non‑metallic solution, right? So, now we have this, this pipe that’s produced from PA 12 and it can support the higher pressures, er, say beyond the reach of HDPE, but into that range of steel, and it’s approved by Penza, who’s the regulatory body, er, for gas distribution up to 250 psi, as you mentioned earlier. [0:00] [10:57]

Terry:  Yeah, and, and as a follow‑up to that, er, to what Doug mentioned, I want make sure that everybody knows and understands just a couple of things about PA 12. Jim, you have that sample there, er, looks a lot like PE pipe. [0:00] [11:13]

Jim:  Yep. [0:00] [11:13]

Terry:  It has, er, the same look, but it, it’s a little smoother. I’m sure you could tell it’s a little smoother, which it kind of adds the, the increased flow rate, but the similarities of PE and PA, er, don’t stop at just the way it looks, um, PA uses the exact same tools and equipment as PE. Same scrapers, same Electra Fusion machine, same conventional fusion machines, so that the viewers out there that might have an interest in PA 12 but are concerned about retooling their trucks in order to use it, there’s no, there’s no need. So, PA 12 actually does offer the benefits of steel pipe system, but, um, the ease of installation that the PE provide, so it’s the best of both worlds. [0:00] [11:56]

Jim:  Can I ask you two quick questions in regards to the installation of this? If we were getting rid of a one mile main steel main line running down from a city gate through a city and wanted to replace it with this, could we leave the existing PE in place and then hook up to this? [0:00] [12:16]

Terry:  You can, it would have to be through a transition. [0:00] [12:18]

Jim:  OK, that’s fair. [0:00] [12:20]

Terry:  So, PE and PA are similar materials, are similar polymers. So, they won’t adhere to each other through electra fusion or by fusion, but you can easily transition from a PE into PA system, absolutely. [0:00] [12:33]

Jim:  Almost again, like how we do with steel to… [0:00] [12:35]

Terry:  Correct. [0:00] [12:36]

Jim:  Exactly. [0:00] [12:36]

Terry:  You’re absolutely right Jim. [0:00] [12:38]

Jim:  And the other thing I want to mention too, you mentioned that hydrocarbon permeation and, and that, can you give our audience just a little bit what that means to them for those, and to James too? [0:00] [12:49] James; Yep. I’m over here in the chat going, please ask that word that they said. [0:00] [12:56]

Terry:  [laughs] Hydrocarbon permeation? Doug, do you want to tackle that one? [0:00] [13:02]

James:  Put them on the spot. [0:00] [[13:04] crosstalk] [0:00] [13:04]

Doug:  I, er, look, I work from home, and, er, there’s a dog in the background, so if it’s going to bark, it’s going to bark when I’m on a video call. [0:00] [13:24]

Jim:  I have three. I’m surrounded. [0:00] [13:26]

Doug:  [laughs] Well, look, hydrocarbon, um, basically is, um, er, material found in, in the earth. It comes up as crude oil. Within that crude, er, there’s a lot more than just refined petroleum product, like gasoline, or natural gas. Um, so, there’s a couple nasty things that, that exist in, in crude and we refer to that generically as a hydrocarbon. Um, but it’s the fossil fuel material, um, and some materials, some plastics are actually more resistant to hydrocarbon than others. And, I guess, that’s one of the, um, features and benefits that we wanted to bring forward a little bit. In respect to the incumbent material, which is again a non‑metallic material, um, er, that, er, is HDPE and, and hydrocarbons also are very corrosive towards steel. [0:00] [14:22]

Jim:  Right. [0:00] [14:22]

Doug:  So, when you see pictures of corroded steel, you know, um, when we look at a non‑metallic solution we don’t have to worry about that corrosion from, from hydrocarbon exposure. So, that’s kind of a high, high level non‑chemical, ex‑, explanation. [0:00] [14:38]

James:  Sounds perfect, you did a great job, Doug, thank you. [0:00] [14:41]

Jim:  And so, James you, when we replace that main line running two miles down the middle of, er, the town, er, another thing that we don’t have to be concerned about is cathodic protec‑, protection and such like that, with using this versus steel pipe, so. [0:00] [14:56] James; Gotcha. Gotcha. Man, see, this is the kind of stuff that I love about this show, because it’s, um, it’s, there’s products out in this world, there’s things, there’s companies, there’s, I didn’t even know existed, you know. And, and so, when I get to learn about the, that’s what I love about it. [0:00] [15:12]

Jim:  Yeah. [0:00] [15:12]

James:  I just speak out over here. I’m sure there’s a lot of viewers and audience that just think it’s going to be two old guys talking about meter sets again, you know, every time. And, no offense out there, we have plenty of people come out and talk about that too. But, then, when we learn kind of the origin stories and, you know, those moments. That to think about this product, is a new product that’s been around for, you know, 60 years, you know, in a way, kind of melts your brain a little bit, but let’s talk a little bit about relationships. [0:00] [15:43] And you know what it takes those partnerships that really make it happen, you know, behind the scenes with Evonik, you know, it’s not unique. They’ve got the same things going on. So, can y’all elaborate on that, how the partnerships are really shaped, have shaped the products of, in the organizational strategy behind where it’s at. [0:00] [16:04]

Terry:  Sure, absolutely, I appreciate that question, James. [0:00] [16:06] James; No worries. [0:00] [16:08]

Terry:  As you guys know, um, it’s extremely difficult to break into the world of gas distribution, right? I mean, you just heard Doug talk about this, with this product was introduced in gas distribution in a ’60s, and you still have steel guys out there that don’t want to move away from steel. They still, they’re still comfortable with steel, not comfortable with HTPE, even though that’s been out there for 50‑plus years. But, er, we knew going into this that it’s, it’s going to take three things to be successful, right? The first and foremost was a time‑tested great product. So, er, check that box, guys, we’ve got that, we have it. [0:00] [16:40] Er, the next thing was time. Er, we knew that we needed to introduce PA 12 into the gas market and spend time building our brand, building the PA 12 brand. Er, and in doing this, I’m often reminded of the story about the young bull and old bull standing on a hill. If you don’t know the rest of the story, I’ll tell you offline. Um, er, but we, we knew as sales guys, even though it’s not necessarily in our cards, we had to be patient. We had to spend the necessary time introducing PA 12 and building a brand. Er, it’s actually the main reason why we’re here on your show today to build a brand, introduce PA 12 to your viewers. [0:00] [17:16] The third thing we needed and maybe just as much as important as time is what you’d mentioned is, is the right relationships. And, having spent some prior time in gas distribution world with, with my time at Central Plastics, I had a pretty good idea who to write, you know, “partners” were for us. And, Doug and I spent a good bit of time making sure that we had the right people in the right seats on the bus. Er, so, we’re proud when we mention that we have partnered with an experienced extrusion company called United Pipe, er, United Poly Systems. Um, and United Poly has facilities in Springfield Missouri, Albuquerque New Mexico. [0:00] [17:50] So, within reach of, of most of the United States, if not all the United States, and they just align perfectly, er, with what we wanted to do, accomplish as a company. And, what we, er, what we are about as a company and our values. And, then, through that relationship and partnership with United Poly we’re actually able to team up with another company we were targeting, Groebner and Associates. You know Groebner, I think Ryan was just on your show not too terribly long ago. [0:00] [18:19]

Jim:  Yes. Do we want to say the name Ryan Ellis. [0:00] [18:21]

James:  No. [0:00] [18:21] [crosstalk] [0:00] [18:21]

Terry:  I just said Ryan. [0:00] [18:25]

James:  It could be anybody. [0:00] [18:25]

Terry:  Yeah, Jim, Jim had to ruin it and say Ellis. So, huh, but we brought them on through, through United Poly as an extended sale agent, sales agent. Um, er, and they also serve as the technical trainer for PA 12 for construction crews. And, given their vast knowledge and experience within the industry we knew they were the right ones to partner with. And, we honestly wholeheartedly believe between these two partnerships, and a product that is second to none, that we believe we’re in a position where we can be extremely attractive and attentive to the needs of clients, both in short and long‑term situations. So, so that’s, that’s, that’s it. Three things, product, time, relationship. [0:00] [19:08]

James:  We joke about Mr. Ryan Ellis, but I got a, a funny story about him yesterday. We recorded with him for the show and we, we get all the way through the pre‑show and he goes, “Man, I gotta, I gotta switch over to a different internet connection,” or something, and he hits a button and it drops his virtual background and he’s sitting in the backseat of his truck and he was doing the show from back there, but you never would have known it, you know, it was, er… [0:00] [19:39]

Jim:  He had a virtual background, so it looked like he was right in front of one of the, er… [0:00] [19:43]

James:  It looked like he had all the space in the world, because, you know, he’s in the back of that big truck, and, er, anyway, it was funny, it’s dedication. [0:00] [19:51]

Terry:  [laughs] [0:00] [19:51]

James:  We appreciate him though, but, er. [0:00] [19:53]

Terry:  You say dedication, I think his wife threw him out of the house beyond… the [0:00] [19:57]

James:  Probably true. [0:00] [19:58]

Jim:  But, we’re not going to confirm or deny that. [0:00] [19:59]

James:  Tune in next week. Right now, guys, Terry, you mentioned something in the pre‑show and I want to be sure we covered it live as well. So people know, the pre‑show is where it’s at. We never record it because we’re all liabilities, but that’s where it’s at. Um, But Terry, you mentioned something, I want to bring it up live. You were going into detail about the cost benefits for companies and I wasn’t sure if you were talking in general regarding it, or if you were specifically, PA 12, so I wanted to be sure we covered that, and, um, like we got a lot going on. So, I, you know, I just want to be sure we’re checking all the boxes for you guys, too. [0:00] [20:37]

Terry:  Yeah, absolutely. I appreciate you bringing that up. I’ll bring Doug in this, on this, as well, as he’s, he’s actually one that kind of helped develop it, so I want to make sure, er, before Doug goes into it is what they hear, what the audience hears, is the savings that could be seen with PA 12 in comparing it to steel. Not only just in the installation cost, but the lifetime, of the lifetime cost savings are incredible. Um, so, um, Doug, do you want to take it from there? [0:00] [21:08]

Doug:  Yeah. Sure. Um, so, it’s kind of a fun topic, Evonik develop this proprietary tool for estimating the cost savings associated with using pipe produced from PA 12 versus steel for the gas distribution applications. It actually works for other oil and gas applications as well, anywhere where we’re comparing PA12 to steel the installation cost and everything about those projects are, are fairly similar. But, you know, as I mentioned earlier in the show, the use of non‑metallic pipe for gas distribution service has been steadily growing since, since the early ’60s. [0:00] [21:44] So, some of the material benefits, you know include that corrosion in hydrocarbon resistance, durable yet lightweight, er, ease and speed of installation, all which translates into lower inflammation in operating costs versus, well, steel, in this case. That’s what we’re comparing to. So, it’s not unusual for a project to realize, you know, more than 60 percent of the life, lifetime cost savings, er, er, when we use P 12 over steel. Um, the other one project where we crunch some numbers through the calculator it was a, yeah, four inch FDR 11. Did you get that James, yeah? [0:00] [22:20]

Doug:  Anyway, right? What does that mean? [0:00] [22:24]

Jim:  It doesn’t mean… [0:00] [22:24]

James:  No, of course, nothing. [0:00] [[22:24] laughter] [0:00] [22:24]

Doug:  Anyway, um, but we showed a cost savings of $285,000 per mile. Per mile, so it’s, just imagine if it’s a 10 mile project, you know, we’re talking seven figures. So, so some serious numbers, right? Um, but the benefit calculator takes into account a lot of the viability or the variable, sorry, that go into installation of steel, welding, x‑ray cathodic protection, lifetime inspections, all this versus PA 12. So, there’s a lot, a lot that goes into this calculator output, um, and it was, it was a really, really fun project. But it’s a, quite an eye‑opener for folks, er, er, when they’re evaluating the use of a non‑metallic versus, er, versus steel. [0:00] [23:17]

Jim:  That’s definitely one exercise for people to go through, seriously. [0:00] [23:21]

Doug:  Absolutely. [0:00] [23:21]

Jim:  And, James, just give you an example, I’m holding this up and showing it, but weight‑wise compared to this was a piece of steel pipe I’m going to say it’s 20 percent maybe. This is just my rough estimate. [0:00] [23:36]

James:  Can you bring that one here in town next week. [0:00] [23:38]

Jim:  Yeah. [0:00] [23:38]

James:  Can I add it to our collection. I don’t know how you get on the plane, but I trust you. [0:00] [[23:43] laughter] [0:00] [23:43]

Jim:  We’ll just let that one go. [0:00] [23:48]

James:  Just for the record I know that SPI 11 is poly pipe. I mean, I know that. [0:00] [23:56]

Terry:  Oh, my man. [0:00] [23:56]

James:  There’s actually a place down the street from me, I live out in the country a bit, that makes poly out here. So, actually, I Googled it, but, um, yeah, I’m an honest man, I’m a multi tasker, and I knew y’all were going to ask that question. [0:00] [24:04]

Jim:  No, nobody is better at doing a quick Google search than you. [0:00] [24:04]

James:  That’s true. I may not know what the acronyms mean but I speak money and I know that 285k a mile is a good number. It would be silly not to run that cost analysis, er, on it anyway, right? I know this, but I don’t know about acronyms. [0:00] [24:04]

Jim:  All right. [0:00] [24:35]

Terry:  I’ll teach him. [0:00] [24:35]

Jim:  Yeah. OK, you be our Luke and we’ll be your Yoda. It’s one of those Star Wars things. [0:00] [24:35]

Doug:  Bad, I love it, yeah. [0:00] [24:35]

Jim:  All right, lets, you know, we’re getting close to, unfortunately, having to wind down here, but we like to kind of wrap up the end of the show with a, a unique question. So, Terry I’m going to begin with, you can hand it over to Doug if you want, you have the floor, sir. If you could leave our audience with one thought, one word, something to leave on the table, give it all away, you know, to our folks that are listening and tuning in, what’s that thought or closing statement you’d want to stay. And again, professional or personal doesn’t any difference in our world, whatever? [0:00] [25:19]

Terry:  How about simple, right? And here it is. I’ll give you three words if I could. [0:00] [25:26]

Jim:  Yep. [0:00] [25:26]

Terry:  And here, and here they are, solutions are here. That says it. [0:00] [25:32]

Jim:  If I had a mic I’d drop it right now, James. [0:00] [25:36]

Terry:  So, so that’s mine, solutions are here. [0:00] [25:41]

Jim:  Doug, do you have anything that you’d want to leave on the table or any words of advice? [0:00] [25:44]

Doug:  Whoo, I’m almost speechless after that one. [laughs] Er, so, I always get a kick out of this one, um, yeah. One word, um, in the, my world, in my industry, since, er, um, I graduated from college, it’s been plastics. [laughs] So, you know, aha, aha, yeah, As Mr. McGuire said to Benjamin in The Graduate, there’s a great future in plastics. And, and that future is here. It’s been here for a while, but, God, I’m not living that life completely, but. [0:00] [26:20]

James:  I feel like Jim has used that same quote before on… [0:00] [26:23]

Jim:  I have. [0:00] [26:24]

Doug:  I bet. I bet. [0:00] [26:26]

James:  Somebody has to have those dreams. There’s a great future in it. [0:00] [26:28]

Jim:  And, and nobody even knows that movie. I’m like, make myself. [0:00] [26:28]

Terry:  I had, I had to look it up, guys, I’m not gonna lie. [0:00] [26:36]

Doug:  Are you serious? [0:00] [26:36]

Terry:  I did. [laughs] [0:00] [26:36]

James:  It’s so, I’ll find the picture when I go off camera. I’m so young that I could not… [0:00] [[26:44] laughter] [0:00] [26:50]

Terry:  Enjoy the movie. [laughs] [0:00] [26:50]

Jim:  Jeez, we better wrap this up before we get into trouble with the FCC. [0:00] [26:57]

Terry:  That’s right. [0:00] [26:57]

Jim:  Let’s say it. Anyways, Terry, Doug, thank you for coming on the show. Thank you for sharing this with us and our audience. Um, we think it’s, um, fascinating technology and I know that there are utilities, municipalities, and others right now are saying we need to know more about that. So, for those that are on the LinkedIn profile platform, er, we’re going to put links in to Terry and Doug, and connect up with them, ask them questions, get involved. A bionic website, um, as well as LinkedIn and such like that. And, er, again, gentlemen, we appreciate on behalf of James and I, we appreciate you being on the show. So, audience, please do connect with Terry and Doug, and thank you for tuning in today. Until next week on Coffee with Jim and James, as I always say, stay safe everyone. Again. Thanks Terry. Thanks Doug. [0:00] [27:52]

Terry:  Thank you guys, really appreciate it. [0:00] [[27:54] music] [0:00]