Thursday, May 27- Join us this week as Gary W. Hines, PE, CAE from the PRCI – Pipeline Research Council International joins us on CWJJ! Gary is a long-time industry friend who joins the show to talk about AI, big data, and pipeline integrity.
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Episode Transcript
Jim Schauer: [0:22] Good morning, everyone. Welcome to this episode of Coffee with Jim and James. James, as I normally do, some of my stories about…I’m thinking back to when Gary and I first met. I was an Antarctica because I was lost looking for an SGA.
[0:38] You know what? Never mind about that. Let me let me be real today. As everybody knows, people say that I am a very much a storyteller, and I like to tell stories, which I do.
[0:49] Full disclosure, I usually come up with these ideas 30 seconds, 3 minutes beforehand. They just hit my brain, and it’s interesting, though, today to be real with everybody. I was just going through my mind, and one thing actually stuck out that actually happened. It was years and years back.
[1:05] I was at a SGA event, and I remember being in a large corridor, and I was working on some problems, walking around and trying on my phone. This gentleman walked up to me, and I don’t think Gary remembers this, but just walked up and said, “Hey, you doing all right? You having an alright day?” I’m like, “I got some problems, you know this that or the other thing.”
[1:27] He goes, “Anything I can do to help you? and I said, “I really appreciate that,” I said, “But, no, hopefully, I’ll get them worked out and I can go back into the sessions.” He goes, “Well, my name is Gary. It’s nice to meet you,” and we met. I don’t think he remembers that, but honestly, it’s stuck in my head and I wanted to share that little story today.
[1:46] Gary, it’s stuck with me from these years, and I try to pass off forward when I see somebody that might be, you know, just having a tough day. Thank you for that, my friend. That was very kind of you, and I wanted to thank you personally and publicly for that.
James Cross: [2:02] It’s all public now.
Jim: [2:03] It’s all public.
James: [2:04] Whether you like it or not, or whether you remember, it’s public. Jimmy, quite the intro, and I liked it because we got we got a real story out of you this time.
Jim: [2:15] [laughs]
James: [2:16] I remember meeting Gary a few different times, but I remember seeing him speak in front of the TGA a couple of years back, and it was a really good message about us all being champions for natural gas and how to do that really every single day. Gary we were excited when you accepted and said you join us on the show. Welcome to the show. Can you live up to that kind of hype?
Gary Hines: [2:42] I’m not sure I can. I certainly brought my cup of coffee this morning, so I’m ready for that part of the conversation, no doubt.
James: [2:48] Cheers to you sir.
Gary: [2:49] Yeah, cheers to you guys.
James: [2:52] Man, that may be our first cheers, funny enough, which is sad. We should do that more often.
Gary: [2:57] First time. I appreciate, Jim, the feedback. I will say that as I was just explaining to you guys before we got started, through this whole pandemic I’ve realized I’m more of an extrovert than I thought I was.
James: [3:10] Same.
Gary: [3:11] I like to give myself the excuse of well, I’m an engineer., so therefore I’m an introvert, and that’s how I make a living is being an introvert, and it’s not quite that true. I’m certainly more of an extravert than introvert. So, whenever I got the invitation, I thought this will be this will be fun and certainly chat about some information and share some maybe air quote wisdom.
[3:35] Let’s see how that pans out at the end of the day here but certainly an opportunity to just kick back a bit and reflect on relationships. Jimmy pointed out something that I have gained a greater appreciation and value for and that is just how…I’ll use this term in general, but trade associations, individual member organizations wherever you find a place to engage, it’s extremely helpful.
[4:05] We work in a big industry but as I say, it’s a pretty small network, and I really like that.
James: [4:16] This is an example of it. No matter where you end up or what it is, that relationship keeps us bonded. This industry, we hear every show almost somebody brings up that same fact. Gary, I don’t know if you’ve seen some of the episodes, but we’re big advocates of helping folks understand that there’s a lot of smart people sitting at tables, trying to figure everything out in this world in our industry and have been for many many years.
[4:42] A lot of people simply just…I don’t know if they think people are throwing darts out there trying to figure out how to throw us for a loop or something, but there’s a lot of people out there. You’ve been one of them, Gary, for a long time that are proactive and out there trying to figure out these problems and turning them into opportunities.
Gary: [5:00] Yeah.
[5:01] [crosstalk]
Gary: [5:03] That’s a great point, James in the fact that my first trade association of being introduced was probably Inga and AGA and SPA, certainly introduced to all of those. I became the most engaged with SGA back in 2006, 2007 in the Gas Control Committee, and it was almost by accident.
[5:26] It’s not something that I was searching for, but I learned pretty quickly that gosh there’s there’s people that are sitting out there that are not struggling, but they’re asking questions just like I am. Here I assumed that the answers were there and not being sought, and I’m very curious. I always want to be learning. That’s my that’s my hashtag, #AlwaysBeLearning.
[5:52] That’s my that’s my hashtag, #AlwaysBeLearning. That’s my hashtag and requires a certain amount of curiosity and wanting to learn and just trying to make sure that we can keep advancing what we know, and what we don’t know, we try to identify and learn more about it.
Jim: [6:06] It’s a great point, and I couldn’t agree with you more. Everyday we can learn something new, and if we pass that on…We say it’s a small big Industry. It’s huge, but it seems very small, and it’s amazing the people that call all the time, just for, “Hey, do you know anything about this? Can you point me in the right direction? Gary, you spent years in the industry. A lot of folks know you from your SGA days, now with PRCI.
[6:33] You want to bring us up to speed on what your current role mission is with PRCI and just give it a good with a high‑level view of that, please?
Gary: [6:41] Yeah, I’ll give you an elevator speech, if you will, on that. PRCI, Pipeline Research Council International, another trade Association. it’s interesting, a lot of the same member organizations, specifically on the pipeline side for the natural gas operators, but it also includes the hazardous liquid operators.
[7:00] As the name implies, it is international, so we have membership in the Middle East, we have membership in Europe, we have membership in China, we have membership in Australia. Talk about a diversity of experience and diversity of challenges. We certainly see that it just in a different way. From a mission perspective, we are collaborating bringing the members together and collaborating on finding solutions through applied research.
[7:32] Organization manages a portfolio of research projects. A lot of them are tied up into Integrity management, what we know as smart tools or the in line inspection tools, but we do things in the fun space of drones and satellite imagery and corrosion. Corrosion is one of those things that just never never goes away, so we’re always looking for a better way to assess, better way to monitor and a better way to manage.
[8:03] We manage the portfolio, but then we hire research contractors, whether that be through universities, whether that be what I would call true research firms that have the really smart people, the ones with the PhDs behind their names, and I don’t mean that in a kidding way. They are some smart individuals that know how to find solutions.
[8:27] We bring the industry together and fund research projects, but the beauty is exactly what we were just talking about regarding that peer evaluation, the peer conversation, the networking and advancing. What you said, here’s what I heard you say, can we take that and leverage into this project this way? I love that. That’s the beauty of it. A lot of the same companies, but different individuals that I’ve been able to meet over the last couple of years.
[8:52] Now two and a half years into this role, and my specific role is Vice President of Operations. I deal a lot with the day‑to‑day operations of the organization, but also within my group is our program managers, which manage the research portfolio and can’t say enough great things about their passion for the industry. I kid often that from a staff perspective, we have a different tag for what PRCI means and that’s people really committed to the industry.
[9:26] That’s what us, as staff, really drive towards is just a passion to improve and continuously learn but to continuously advance, and we do that through an aggregation of pipeline operators, of vendors, consultants, ILI tool providers in‑ line inspection for those that are not familiar with ILI. It’s been a great ride. It’s certainly different than where I met you guys originally from walking up and down the halls at Southern Gas Association.
[9:56] I’ve learned to apply some things from that experience in course into this current role that I have now.
James: [10:02] That’s awesome. I always like to hear the origin story of some of these things. This is my favorite part is the intro on the fact that we got like probably 10, 12, 15 minutes into the show, and Gary just told us what his title was, I think is a testament to how poor of a job Jim and I really do [laughs] of the show. Gary you hit on something that…I’m a nerd man, deep down. I got all excited when you start talking about the data and analytics on that side.
[10:33] Let’s talk about ILI I or the smart in‑line inspection. There’s been a lot of advancement on that side, and we’ve got clients and different folks, and it’s a lot of buzz going on. You want to talk about that a little bit and how that’s changed and what the outlook is?
Gary: [10:51] Yeah, I appreciate you bringing that up. One thing that I would say, we call them smart tools for a reason because they are really smart, there are smart people that are telling them what to do, but it’s almost like the term smart tool is an absolute. The one thing that I would say is those tools are getting smarter and, of course, that’s by advancement in technology.
[11:15] They continue to be able to detect what they need to detect and find cracks and find flaws and find corrosion and find dents. That’s been technology that frankly has been around for 20, 25 plus years. I can remember my days back working for Williams, whenever I worked for the pipeline operator side and being out at 1 a.m. tracking those pigs, running through the system.
[11:43] I didn’t think they were so smart at that point in time since we were still waiting for it to come out, the other end of the pipeline at 1 a.m. Regardless, we’ve got some technology that’s just what I call foundational, it’s not really changed, but the accuracy of finding has certainly improved, if you will. The probability of detection and the probability of identification, that continues to improve.
[12:09] What that does for our industry, specifically, is it helps the operator determine should I dig this up or should I not dig this up. I think all of us can appreciate that. As costs continue to go up for equipment, for labor, for overhead, the less you have to dig the better it is, but you got to have a level of confidence to know I don’t have to dig that up.
[12:34] A lot of work within the last really the last 18, 24 months, we’ve got a couple of projects that are actually co‑funded by the Department of Transportation to advance that work, to make sure that whatever anomalies that we think we can see…We’ve got the facility in Houston that is a collection of I don’t know, 1500 anomalies from around the world. I call it the Smithsonian of pipe defects.
[13:00] That’s the best way I can describe the Technology Development Center that sits in Houston. We put known defects in a string and ask the ILI providers, the in‑line inspection providers, run your smart tool and tell us what you find, and we’ll tell you how accurate that is. Then they go back, and they refine their algorithms so that they can better detect what we already know exists within the string.
[13:23] Raises the confidence level during so, therefore, you can reduce the digs, and you can dig what you actually should be digging instead of, I don’t have a high level of confidence, I feel like I need to go dig that just to verify. Process of improvement, and our industry I think does a better job with this, by the way, than what most people realize. For whatever reason, the pipeline industry gets this an antiquation sense to it, and I think that’s wrong.
[13:49] We’re doing a lot more in this space of technology advancement than people realize. Does it behoove us to do a better job of communicating that? I believe it does.
James: [13:59] No doubt.
Gary: [13:59] There’s a whole lot of great things happening from technology advancement and specifically whenever comes to these smarter ILI tools that are getting advanced in the industry.
James: [14:08] I just love the art of artificial intelligence side of it, the machine learning, the neural network side of it. That’s the part that I’m excited that…I’ve said it for a long time, well not a long, I haven’t been in this industry that long. Since I’ve been in this industry there will come a day very soon when we can say all variables point to an accident right now, shut it down.
[14:34] Whether it be from an entire pipeline Integrity standpoint or qualification or combo of all those things, we’re creating with data and big data a more and more likelihood of that being a possibility, and that’s amazing.
Gary: [14:49] I would say on that specifically, the area that I think we have the nearest term advancement for artificial intelligence machine learning is in leak detection. Leak detection requires an enormous amount of data to do the computational monitoring that takes place. Certainly, we find the algorithms, but it takes an enormous amount of data. I do think that’s the area that we will see the most advancement.
[15:16] Of course the NTSB now has on their most wanted list advancing leak detection. I think in our industry, pipeline industry specifically and maybe more specifically on the hazardous liquid side, but I think you’re going to see more advancement on AI through leak detection.
James: [15:33] Honestly, if we see any I think people’s eyes will just open bright, and it’ll explode on our…Oh, that’s bad. You know what I’m saying. Yeah,
[15:42] [laughter]
[15:42] [crosstalk]
James: [15:43] It will grow astronomically on our side because people just don’t know what they don’t know.
Gary: [15:50] That’s exactly, right.
James: [15:51] Dude, you nailed it, it’s a data, and the more data we can pass through the more complicated, the more extreme those edge cases, all of that can be pumped through those algorithms, the exciting stuff begins to happen.
Jim: [16:04] Well, if I could comment real quick on that, James, to say that instead of what I call…Not that traditional research lab work ever goes away. I don’t think it does, but we’re certainly putting our self more in the space of leveraging the millions of lines of data that are available and learn from that. What we see as trends, what we see as gaps, what we see as opportunities, there’s a real space in that.
[16:32] There are operators that are advancing that pretty quickly, some more than others, but, collectively, I do see some momentum happening where there’s more data sharing in the future. There’s still hesitancy around that, but it’s getting better. It’s maturing as it should. Yeah, Gary…
James: [16:48] Did you see us just geek out for a minute.
[16:51] [crosstalk]
James: [16:50] Jim’s eyes glassed over when we start talking about neural networks, and Jim just drifted off.
Gary: [16:58] You know where my mind is? I’ll be honest with you. I’m a hands‑on type of person, and I respect you gentlemen, and I love it when James goes, “I want to geek out for a minute,” because it’s just so fun watching that. You mentioned a facility in Houston that actually has nuts and bolts and pipes and stuff. That’s my world. That’s something that I cannot wait.
[17:18] Hopefully, I can visit that facility and take a look at that because that’s a story definitely where…I do tell a lot of stories, and that’s a story that I would like to tell and let…
James: [17:28] How do we get that invite, Gary?
Gary: [17:31] You just asked…
[17:32] [crosstalk]
Gary: [17:33] It sounds like publicly, I need to make sure that you guys have the invite.
[17:36] [laughter]
Gary: [17:39] Candidly, we are open for business, we are hosting events there and love to find an opportunity of somehow doing something similar to this with the backdrop of the facility and as I said the…
[17:55] [crosstalk]
James: [17:55] I know a guy.
Gary: [17:56] pipe defects.
[17:57] James I know three guys.
Jim: [17:59] We’re in. No seriously, we’re in.
James: [18:01] That’s the kind of stuff. We live for that stuff. Jimmy would love to go to. You said it was in Houston, right, Gary?
Gary: [18:08] In Houston. Here’s my only ask you guys have to buy me barbecue. That’s my only requirement.
[18:13] [laughter]
James: [18:14] I like your barbecue.
[18:20] [laughter]
Jim: [18:20] Wait, hold on. Full disclosure, I’m in West Palm Beach, Florida. Barbecue here is a hamburger that they put ketchup on. So, it’s a little bit different than Texas barbecue. You’ll see me first in line, buying everybody barbecue, when I get back [inaudible], Gary.
Gary: [18:33] Perfect, so deal. We got that settled then. We just got to find…
James: [18:38] Awesome.
Jim: [18:39] At least it’s four people that know it, so the three of us and our one viewer out there. We’re good to go.
James: [18:45] I’m wrong.
Gary: [18:45] We’ll get what we’re in for.
Jim: [18:47] Gary, also you were talking about everything from past, present and future, tying them together, best practices, data points, blah, blah, blah. You guys were geeking out.
[19:00] My mind also raced in the news over months now, we’ve been seeing a lot about hydrogen, hydrogen, this hydrogen that, and a lot of people are asking me questions because I’m in the energy business. How does it work? What’s applications? How’s it transported? Blah, blah, blah. Have you run across hydrogen in in your daily to‑dos?
James: [19:21] Studies.
Jim: [19:22] Studies.
Gary: [19:23] Yeah. It’s a fascinating question in the fact of simplistically, how you put it? The simple answer is yes. The one thing I would say regarding hydrogen, here’s what I would not have expected, if we would have had this coffee chat, a year ago, I would have said it’s being talked about, and there’s some conversation out there.
[19:43] I would not have expected as much maturity and discussion and conversation as we have today. I tell you, though that honestly, the few things regarding the hydrogen front, first of all, it’s not really new. We specifically, PRC, I we’ve been researching things about hydrogen since back to 1970 1972.
[20:07] You can look at the amount of research that even we have done since then, and it’s exponentially more now than it was was. Then you broaden that on a macro scale around the world, and there’s certainly a lot of work that is happening in Europe from a research perspective. The gas technology Institute has a hydrogen center that they have that they have launched.
[20:32] They have partnered with a EPRI in putting out their a low‑carbon initiative. There’s a lot of work underway in this space. Candidly, the biggest challenge is coordinating and making sure that we’re not duplicating their efforts, they’re not duplicating our efforts. That’s the biggest need is just making sure that we’re coordinated.
[20:54] From a hydrogen use, in our infrastructure, within the United States, here would be my comments on that, is that there are some states, and I will pick out California, specifically. We’ve got some members in California that are…The conversations are a lot more matured, and that is driven from the state regulatory front. The state the utility commission there.
[21:23] They’re already blending that 5 and 7, maybe 10‑15 percent hydrogen in the stream to see what the impacts are. Whenever you look at our pipeline system, and let’s just pick on the natural gas pipeline system of, 150,000, 200,000 miles of pipeline, the real question is, how do you make sure that there’s in a interchangeability amongst the different pipelines? f your blended it a 5 to 10%, how do you move that to another pipeline system?
[21:52] There’s a lot of gaps there that that have to be answered, and aside from just what we look at of more of the physical assets because you’ve got hydrogen being induced into a pipeline system and existing infrastructure. You’ve also got hydrogen that can migrate into much smaller particles, so it migrates through materials in a different way than what natural gas does. It is a monster issue to look at.
[22:23] There are so many different ways that hydrogen is different than natural gas. It has to be looked at from a holistic basis. We have parts that we’re carving out the PRC will look at and road map for the next three to five years, and then we’ll work with the other organizations for what I call the full value chain from production through transportation and into delivery to customers.
[22:47] Jim, I’m not directly answering your question, but there’s actually activity, under way. The conversations have got to continue. One more comment I would make regarding hydrogen, as much as we’re doing on the physical asset side, we got to keep in mind that there’s what I call the commercial component to this for again, interchangeability gas, quality, standards, contracts, and how hydrogen is shipped through our pipeline system.
[23:13] Again, it’s a very complicated web of issues. Some of them are being talked about pretty heavily and others, not as much.
[23:23] Here’s what would be fascinating, gentleman, is in the next year if each one of us wrote down today what we think happens in the next year, my guess is based on the momentum for the last 12 months that we will be way off of our estimates, that it will advance much quicker than what we think it will just based on the last 12 months and how things have matured in advanced.
[23:44] Jim, just need as you pointed out, you’re getting more and more questions about it. Yeah, I don’t know that a year ago I would have guessed that. It would have In one of those, you know, hypothetical conversations. No, now, it’s very much more how does this impact the facility and impact me as a worker for the facility? Great conversation
James: [24:02] Gary, that question is as much a personal question for Jim and I, as sharing it with everyone else, because again, it’s such a new conversation. We want to be educated as well so that we can help bring people along in this conversation. Just being able to share that with folks to get a clearer picture that really smart things going on behind the scenes. If you would like to get involved, we know some people…
Gary: [24:29] That’s right.
James: [24:30] that you can sit next to. Jim Bob, I’m gonna I’m gonna bring this home.
Jim: [24:36] I was going to say, rock paper scissors, or you got it?
James: [24:39] I’m going take this one. You do it.
Jim: [24:41] Do it.
James: [24:42] Gary and I are basically neighbors.
Gary: [24:45] Close.
James: [24:46] ish. Gary, do you love what you do?
Gary: [24:50] I do a lot. One thing, I’m sure you guys get asked this too, you’re sitting around and kind of doing an icebreaker, and somebody might say what’s the one job you’ve ever had that you just didn’t like.
[25:04] I’ve never had a job that I don’t like. I’ve never have. I mowed grass and did landscaping in high school and that’s what helped me put myself through college to some extent. I started out the gate working for the Williams Companies and learned a lot there, move to SGA and had some various roles there and now sitting at PRCI.
[25:26] Somebody has asked me before as I enter my late 40s now and start looking at starting to be able to spell that R word retirement. It’s getting closer so the question comes up of, when do you want to retire and what might that be?
[25:43] The thing that I would tell you James is that for me, I didn’t know this coming out of college, but I love the energy industry. It’s still heavily misunderstood. I think you guys know that too. It’s still heavily misunderstood for even our piece. There’s a class that I still teach, Introduction In Natural Gas Industry.
[26:03] I say, teach, I’ll call facilitate, to try to facilitate the conversation. I bet I’ve done that class 10 or 12 times and I still learn something. Every time I do it, I learn something. I think about something different. Maybe that’s just the curiosity about me and again, the hashtag #AlwaysBeLearning.
James: [26:20] Always.
Gary: [26:21] James, I do love what I do and I love the networking piece too and making sure that I try to have some. It’s hard to keep a full pulse so you guys do a really good job with these conversations, but try keep a pulse of what’s going on and just stay connected and just stay connected.
James: [26:38] This is so much going on. There really is when we talk to folks, our industry just continues to roll out even further and further. As we bring in more and more technology, we bring in new groups that hopefully we can help bring along in those conversation and turn into champions of what we’re doing.
Gary: [27:00] Something I would say so, good term there James is, we’re all champions whether we know it or not with our neighbors, with people we go to synagogue or church with or the Little League team, we’re all champions.
[27:12] Interestingly enough, we’re all a trusted resource because it’s somebody that we know that we’ve got a first name basis with and, “You work in this? What does this mean?” Or “What does that mean?”
James: [27:22] This is exact message that Gary sold me on at TTA that day. He just pulling his cards on me. You’re right though Gary.
Gary: [27:30] [inaudible].
James: [27:32] Really that was one of the eye‑opening moments for me that I do have a voice. I think one of the good things is that it’s not like everyone else’s.
Gary: [27:43] That’s right.
James: [27:44] It does have what is personal and then I can reach a new audience that other people might not could have.
Gary: [27:52] James, the thing I would say on that is for some reason I think that there’s this feeling that I got to have a bullhorn to convince. I say it’s just the opposite because you may be the third person that tells somebody something. They’re like, “I believe that now.”
[28:07] It’s because how you shared it or the timing or you are the third person that shared it. You don’t know when that’s going to happen, but you just engage. Just that the passion is there.
James: [28:23] Amen.
Gary: [28:23] Last thing I would say on that space is, you could ask me five years ago, Jim whenever we were walking up there in the hallway and anything I can do for you and you could have said then, “Are you going to be working for a research organization in five years?” No, I wouldn’t have guessed that.
[28:38] My point in saying that is this, our industry, James or Jim but one of you said this our industry is so big. There’s so many different things that can be done just within our industry alone.
[28:50] If you feel like you’re doing something now, maybe James this getting back to your original question here, if you feel like you’re doing something now, then don’t feel stuck there because there’s a lot of different opportunities to do things with.
James: [29:01] Someone.
Gary: [29:01] Myself as a civil engineering degree, I would have never guessed that I’d be sitting here chatting with you guys over a cup of coffee and just hanging out.
James: [29:10] If you would have told Jim or I that this is what we were doing last year. [laughs]
[29:14] Jim Shower: They’re like, “You’re crazy.”
James: [29:18] We would take off. Man, Gary [inaudible].
Jim: [29:20] Wait, James I also thought, I want to pull something. This is brand new just came to my remember, me ready. Gary, I got three questions for you. Answer the first thing that comes to your mind. Ready? Regular or decaf?
Gary: [29:33] Regular.
Jim: [29:35] Light, medium or dark?
Gary: [29:36] Dark.
Jim: [29:38] Cream or sugar?
Gary: [29:40] Yes.
Jim: [29:41] All right. Got it.
James: [29:43] [inaudible].
Gary: [29:44] I will say going on the sugar front, I used to heavily load it with sugar four years ago or maybe five years ago. I didn’t drink coffee at all. I just started drinking it as a replacement. I used to drink Mountain Dew as my pick me up in the morning.
Jim: [29:58] Me too.
Gary: [30:00] I cut that out and I lost five pounds by just cutting out Mountain Dew because of the sugar. I still kept the sugar in the coffee, but I have weaned myself off that. I just love the taste of coffee. Love the taste of coffee.
James: [30:12] I can’t imagine Gary Hines and Jim Shower five years ago, both hyped up on Mountain Dew.
Jim: [30:19] I would have three cans.
James: [30:21] This [inaudible] the longest episode on earth if we were all hyped up on Mountain Dew. That’s for sure.
Jim: [30:28] I feel so much better and since I gave it up too pretty much about soft drinks and do enjoy coffee now. Don’t necessarily need it, but I enjoy it. Gary, listen, we on behalf of James, I can’t thank you enough for your time today.
[30:43] It was absolutely great seeing you, catching up, hearing what you’re doing, your insight into the industry inspired me. I’m sure it inspired a lot of our audience. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Gary: [30:56] Appreciate you guys’ time and I look forward to being face‑to‑face and we got an action item to have some barbecue in Houston and while we’re getting [inaudible] in there.
Jim: [31:03] I like it.
James: [31:04] I do.
Jim: [31:05] For all of our audience, please, check out Gary. I know he’s on LinkedIn and some other platforms too. As you can tell, he’s a great guy. He likes to share, he likes to make our industry, our world better, his organization does.
[31:21] Check him all out. Until next week on “Coffee with Jim & James,” as I always say, have a great week and please everyone, stay safe. Take care and we will see you soon.
[31:33] [music]